chrislehrich ([info]chrislehrich) wrote,
@ 2005-11-23 14:23:00
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Musings on New Projects
As always, I am using RPGs to muse about my professional work.

Some time back, I got very gung-ho about Levi-Strauss's bricolage as a lovely way of thinking about how RPGs work. I still maintain that this is largely accurate, particularly when it comes to the vexed question of Simulationism. But there is a problem: Levi-Strauss's methods presume, for excellent reasons, that the data as it presents itself will be synchronic, i.e. independent of time. Presumably bricolage happens over time, but the ethnographer rarely if ever has enough longitudinal data to be able to see how it was done over time. He can infer backwards into the logical processes but not the chronological. Thus analysis of bricolage is a matter of examining a process that has always already been completed. And this means that RPGs, which we enounter diachronically (over time), are very difficult to examine by these structural means.

In theory, you could take a kind of snapshot of a large-scale campaign and look at it as a set of structured relations. This would certainly be interesting, but you'd have to have excellent data, and it's not at all clear that the results would be of much value by themselves. If you had the same sort of rich campaign data for many campaigns, you could work comparatively as well, and get at the logical procedures and so on. But first of all we pretty much don't have this data. And second, it would necessarily tell us nothing about play or about how the game operated from the player perspective. This is not the case when we're dealing with myth and ritual and so on, i.e. the usual objects of structural-anthropological analyses, because the structures in question are lived: they structure social relations and so on. But with RPGs the method would appear to eliminate exactly what is most interesting.

And, of course, from anything resembling a practical perspective, i.e. for talking about playing and designing fun games, such a method really is useless. So do we have to scrap this useful analogy?

I don't think so.

First of all, I think this is very revealing about certain important founding games, namely D&D, Runequest, and so on. The stories we hear about how these games happened seem to suggest that they started with a sketchy rules-set and a detailed world (Greyhawk, Glorantha, etc.). Wonderfully exciting and rich gaming happened somehow or other, and a very intricate and dense rules-system evolved in the process. Then the creators codified and polished the rules-systems and published them as a kind of quick-start for others to do what they had done.

One way of thinking about this, in terms of bricolage and myth, is that these gaming groups (or at least their public spokesmen) believed that the wonderful gaming rested on those mechanics. Thinking like engineers, they figured that if they had had those great rules to start out, they would have had wonderful gaming right away. But if we think of such gaming as like mythical thought, then this is precisely not true: the mechanics were a by-product of good gaming, not their cause. Like myth, their play went from structure (good play) to concept (rules) to structure (more good play). To engineer this, to start with concept (rules) and go to structure (good play) might work, but it could not produce the same sort of play, for the same reason as modern science and mythical thinking are not the same thing even if they can at times produce comparable results.

My current thinking is that this type of gaming, which I think is reasonably accurately defined by Ron's Big Model as Simulationism, is thus intrinsically resistant to engineering, which is why the whole Forge approach (System Does Matter, so design a system that will consistently generate the desired play results) seems to have a terrible time with Sim, and why the Forge keeps having all these battles about what Sim really is and so on. It's just not definable in Forge terms. Which isn't to say that Nar and Gam, which are indeed engineer-able, aren't good things and can't be produced in those terms.

For some reason Ron and others keep thinking that what I'm talking about here (I talked to Ron recently) is what they like to call the Beeg Horseshoe Theory, which puts Nar and Gam as two prongs of a horseshoe with Sim weirdly in between. I don't mean this at all: I mean that Nar and Gam may well be two prongs of a horseshoe, if the horseshoe in question is engineered play. And Sim is something quite other, something quite radically at odds with this, not the same horseshoe at all. If you look at Sim from Nar/Gam (engineering) eyes, it's intrinsically incoherent and inefficient. If you look at Nar/Gam from Sim (bricolage) eyes, it's pointless, limited, and unsatisfying -- it's essentially not the same activity at all, and thus defined in Sim terms it's worthless.

Now all that said, Levi-Strauss isn't the be-all and end-all of understanding this epistemological issue. There are other ways of handling it, and what I'm grappling with right now is that in classical music they fought with precisely this divide since before Bach, in some ways resolved a lot of things when they got to Schoenberg's Harmonielehre (1911), and along the way produced some fabulous art. So I'm going to be musing for a while about whether you can design a Sim game by borrowing from musical models.

Which is also what I'm doing for my next book project: examining the complex analytical problem of historical and structural analysis as they relate and entwine within particular materials, notably witchcraft phenomena cross-culturally examined. And I'm going to try to solve the problem, to some degree anyway, by seeking the ways people involved in witch-hunting were themselves grappling with the same problem I am, and using Schoenberg's theoretical intersection of harmony and polyphony to model it effectively. Ultimately the result should be a book that in some sense is structured as a work of music -- which also allows me at last to take up Levi-Strauss's discussion of music (and challenge it).

So anyway, you should expect to hear a lot more about this over the next year or so as I struggle to create a Sim game and a book on witchcraft (and perhaps a sonata), all at the same time, for the same reasons, and by the same methods.



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[info]bluegargantua
2005-11-23 08:27 pm UTC (link)

Cool. Looking forward to seeing the results.

later
Tom

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[info]bryant
2005-11-23 09:03 pm UTC (link)
I am not competent to talk about Levi-Strauss, but I think you're dead on target with regards to Sim vs. Nar/Gam. I had a post a while back on 20x20 which looked at the difference between Bartle's MMORPG types and the results derived from actual research and polling by Nick Yee; I then compared this to WotC gamer type research vs. the Forge theory.

In both cases, "exploration" was the poorly defined category which completely vanished when you looked at real data.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

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[info]chrislehrich
2005-11-23 09:52 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you that "exploration" is poorly defined, but I'm not sure it vanishes in reality. I always think the problem with a lot of Ron's writings is that he cannot entirely submerge his Narrativist preferences; the definition you quote about "dreaming" and so on presumes, at base, that all exploration will be expressible at base in narrative terms, which means that the primary difference between exploration for its own sake (Exploration squared, the current hip phrase for Sim) and Narrativism is that Sim doesn't have much preconceived structuring to the stories it tells while Narrativism does. That's a gross simplification, but it's in some sense accurate, and this lends itself to a facile reading of Sim as unfocused and pointless.

Still, the core idea of exploration as central to Sim has a good point, if we recognize that (like myth and ritual) Sim exploration is a form of thought. It is comparable (in reverse) to modes of thought like science. And that is exactly why its purposes and functions are so radically at odds with the whole rest of RPG gaming. (Not to say it's better, of course, but it sure is different.)

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[info]badgerbag
2005-12-06 04:28 am UTC (link)
The whole debate makes me think of the concept of "difficult writing". You figure out ways of thinking, and evolve ways of reading, in response. Trying to fit all gaming styles into the Forge model is like comparing Ulysses to a Tarzan novel.

I wish you had been around for our Vinland game!

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[info]muckefuck
2005-11-23 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Chris, it's been ages since I browsed any Forge articles. Real quick, what are "Gam" and "Nar" short for again?

The idea of designing a game using musical models is fantastic. I'd love to see how that turns out.

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[info]chrislehrich
2005-11-23 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Gam: Gamism.
Nar: Narrativism.

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-23 09:20 pm UTC (link)
Chris, what you say reminds me of a dialog I had with John Hastings on his blog where I argued that part of the reason for the divide between fans of so-called "German" board games and fans of simulation wargames is that wargaming entails an ongoing dialog between the game and the player over the suitability of the rules in relation to the situation represented; a "tinkering" mindset is thus expected and often necessary to enjoy these games.

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[info]chrislehrich
2005-11-23 09:29 pm UTC (link)
That's fascinating, especially given the historical linkage between wargaming and the origins of RPGs. Thanks!

(Of course, I'm worrying that I'm starting to get one of those "it's all so cleeeear to me now!" feelings, which usually means I ought to lie down.)

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[info]badgerbag
2005-12-06 04:33 am UTC (link)
OMG yes! That makes it very clear. And Chris I think you are on the right track by thinking of bodies of myth - which are also "tinkering" as people retell stories in response to stories and sort of position themselves in relation to myth.

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New and Improved Model - the Tuning Fork!
(Anonymous)
2005-11-26 12:50 am UTC (link)
Hi Chris

This is Jay! Livejournal some how can't email the registration confirmation email to me. alas...

For some reason Ron and others keep thinking that what I'm talking about here (I talked to Ron recently) is what they like to call the Beeg Horseshoe Theory, which puts Nar and Gam as two prongs of a horseshoe with Sim weirdly in between. I don't mean this at all: I mean that Nar and Gam may well be two prongs of a horseshoe, if the horseshoe in question is engineered play. And Sim is something quite other, something quite radically at odds with this, not the same horseshoe at all.

Have you considered adopting the image of a tuning fork as a model? G/N are the two prongs, S is the handle and the union is Zilchplay. Ta da! =o)

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Re: New and Improved Model - the Tuning Fork!
[info]chrislehrich
2005-11-29 12:27 pm UTC (link)
You are evil and must be destroyed.

Actually, I rather suspect that the whole GNS thing is backwards from an analytical point of view, if perhaps accurate from a limited design point of view. Which is to say I wonder if all successful gaming doesn't participate in mythical thinking, but two versions are sufficiently narrow and limited that they can be engineered. So this is I suppose the Beeg Horseshoe, but inside-out.

I guess one implication would be that the Big Model is a process of discarding broad spans of gaming in favor of clean design. While I sympathize with the game designer who wants a clean procedure, I also happen to think that this throws the baby out with the bathwater: to my mind gaming is most powerfully successful when it does tap into mythical thinking, and I see design moving increasingly toward foreclosing that possibility. This is like Elliott's point about German-style boardgames.

I do think that the whole "Zilchplay" thing is problematic. I don't think there is such a thing, because I think all play necessitates active involvement. If people are thinking, and manipulating the game-world and its pieces, then I do not see how they can be doing zilch. I think that from a "clean engineering" perspective, this is a legitimate category -- but since I also think that gaming is founded on something sharply at odds with clean engineering as an approach, I think the ever-increasing scope of so-called zilchplay, by which I mean the ever-increasing trend of labeling more kinds of play as zilchplay, is indicative of a very serious problem analytically.

In short, I think that from an engineering/science perspective, a lot of mythical thought looks like just mucking about for no reason, because "all" it does is shift around cultural and natural structures to see what looks nice and thinks nice, as it were. And for a long time this was seen as evidence of how primitive and stupid traditional peoples were. I see the whole "zilchplay" thing as much the same: gamers who play that way are just dicking around, unlike us smart, focused players.

Somebody really ought to write a zilchplay manifesto, I suppose.

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Its (almost) all mythic thought!
[info]silmenume
2005-12-02 09:52 am UTC (link)
You are evil and must be destroyed.

You know, the first two or three hundred times I heard that it possessed the potential to cut, but now I am stronger, oh so much stronger and it is now little more than the mildly annoying whine of a mosquito! :oP

...I wonder if all successful gaming doesn't participate in mythical thinking...

I think that all successful CA related gaming is founded in mythical thinking. To borrow from your Bricolage APPLIED (finally!) thread –

So in addition to structure being a quality of the machine, it’s also an aesthetic constraint on what the machine ought to look like. This has many, many layers—which we can roughly break down into those functions (practical, psychological, social) and some intellectual and aesthetic ideals of how we like things to be.

I believe that pervy overt Gam and Nar facilitating game designs supplant or control the “aesthetic constraints” mechanically from the outside. Otherwise the acts of evaluating the actions within the SIS in light of one’s CA as well as all statements that are entered into the SIS without “contest” are instances of mythical thinking. I would go as far as to say that I don’t think it is even possible to have CA expressive “play” without mythical thinking.

However, I do believe it is possible to Explore without mythical thinking – and that would fall under the heading Zilchplay. “Tourism” or the “Social Agenda” would be prime examples of what I am trying to convey.

Chew on that – if you dare! Bwa ha ha ha ha ha!

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Re: New and Improved Model - the Tuning Fork!
[info]ewilen
2005-12-06 05:30 am UTC (link)
I was hoping you'd say that G/N are the two prongs and S is the vibration.

(Tongue planted only partly in cheek.)

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Rules=Concept and Game=Structure?
[info]jonnysfriendian
2005-12-07 11:19 pm UTC (link)
Hi,

Why are you presenting the gaming as the structure beneath the rules, rather than the rules as the structure beneath the game?

I'm quite happy to believe I'm missing the point (after all, I know I'm not completely following you, so I'm probably missing something), but surely rules, being the more constant and objective thing, are the structure which some gamers, particularly on the Forge, might regard as underpinning rules?

Or is it more that the gaming is the structure in the precise anthropological sense of a core human drive which turns up again and again in different cultures and settings?

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Re: Rules=Concept and Game=Structure?
[info]chrislehrich
2005-12-08 03:50 am UTC (link)
Hmm. Interesting question. Hadn't thought about it quite this way.

Let's start with definitions, because I suspect there may be a disconnect there. I suppose when I say "gaming" I mean everything that happens at the table, expressed or internalized. When I say "rules" I don't mean the very broad Lumpley definition of system; at least for the moment, I mean the relatively formal "rules" in the easy sense (damage rules, movement rules, characteristic and trait rules, etc.).

So I don't think (or don't think I think) that gaming is a structure underlying rules. I think that rules are an abstraction from gaming, but that this implies nothing about the necessity of any particular causal relationship.

To put that in English, I mean that you can progress from rules, understood as constant and objective, to gaming. And this is clearly an efficient way to operate. But you can also progress from gaming to rules, which is what I think the original D&D and Runequest groups did. The thing is, I think the final result in terms of the gaming you end up with (since moving from gaming to rules leads you back to the table to game some more) is quite different in the two cases.

As to the idea that gaming is a structure in that generalizable sense, well, hmm. In a way, I would tend to think of gaming as a manifestation of such a general human drive, but I'm not entirely sure I know what I mean by that. I do think that there is something very deeply not new about gaming, and I also think that this is emphatically not because "we tell stories together" in some romanticized vision of Ancient Man Telling Stories Around the Ancient Campfire. When we have decent data about people who actually do this as a serious part of their culture, and by serious I mean not just a kind of occasional hobby that some folks do of an evening but rather something terribly important -- often marked as sacred, in fact... when we have such data, it never seems to look like folks sitting around a campfire telling stories. It looks deeply, deeply strange, insanely hard to grasp, and yet disturbingly and powerfully familiar. This is the problem of myth, and it's not going away: more than a century of excellent scholarship has succeeded in demonstrating that myth is a worse and worse, more and more nightmarish problem the more you look at it. And I am of the opinion that the same drives and processes underlie gaming -- or rather, they did underlie the early success of things like D&D and Runequest.

To specify, incidentally, I mean "success" not in terms of the games catching on and selling, but rather that they were so powerfully exciting for the original groups that people felt compelled to distill out rules and sell them as a new and wonderful thing.

Does that help? You don't have to agree -- feel free to kick my ass. But that's more or less what I'm thinking.

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Re: Rules=Concept and Game=Structure?
[info]jonnysfriendian
2005-12-08 09:17 am UTC (link)
Interesting ... so in an attempt to work out what you meant, I came up with another interesting idea. That's cool, and I think I've seen that happen before.

At the moment, my ambition is mainly to follow what you are saying.

What do you mean by "rules are an abstraction from gaming"? That the early roleplayers (and some later ones) created their formal rules from their experience of gaming? (Which explains the blurb on the back of first edition D&D, which talks about not having to find all the rules distributed around magazines and scraps of paper I'd never heard of.)

Your conclusion is that you end up with two different styles of gaming depending on whether you get your rules from a book (progressing from rules to gaming) or organically emerging house rules (progressing from gaming to rules). In the latter case, you'll have a gaming group which is much keener on changing the rules as it goes along, but that doesn't say anything about where they'll like on GNS, or SAG vs MND.

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[info]xiombarg
2005-12-09 09:51 pm UTC (link)
That sounds really interesting, actually...

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[info]xiombarg
2005-12-09 10:01 pm UTC (link)
As far as the Beeg Horseshoe goes, perhaps it's a matter of people mistaking Bad Sim for Good Sim?

What I mean is that if we call what you are talking about -- functional Sim as the result of non-engineered bricolage, a different thing entirely than Gamism or Narrativism -- Good Sim, there's also Bad Sim, which is post-bricolage attempts to engineer Sim, which ultimately failed.

Bad Sim is viewed by a lot of early Gamists and Narrativists as a sort of piss-poor compromise between the two, i.e. the Beeg Horseshoe.

Therefore, there are four things being talking about here: Gamism, Narrativism, Bad Sim ("engineered", non-functioning Sim) and Good Sim (functional Sim, a different animal entirely than the other three things). But previously there as no distinction made between Bad Sim and Good Sim, so when you talked about it, the engineer-types thought you were making the same sort of noises people used to make when they talked about Bad Sim in relation to the Beeg Horsehoe, and therefore mistakenly believed you were talking about the Beeg Horseshoe.

Does that make sense?

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